1095 (produced by stock-removal by a company) is OVER-PRICED!!!!!

jdm61 said:
1095 is about the cheapest "real" high carbon steel you can buy. Just check the prices. That doesn't mean that it is bad. With that said, 56 Rc is not a "super secret heat treatment"to me. It is WAY too soft. If you need to leave your steel that soft to make it tough, you are probably using the wrong steel. But I would say the same thing about Randall using 440B at 54Rc. I have seen shop tour video from one these companies where they are heating up the edge of their knives in a forge and quenching dirty ass oil. "Hard to the core", perhaps, but not exactly super secret and certainly not "best methods"in 2017. ;)
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54-56 RC would be Randall's 0-1: Their 440B is 56-58 RC from what I know. Also Randall's shop foreman is on the record that some 440B batches bridge into 440C in Carbon content...

Carbon steels are cheaper mainly because they are easier to grind. The fact that they are easier to grind also means they have somewhat lower edge holding than stainless (contrary to what Randall very strangely claims): Overall, Carbon steels are an inferior grade of steel in almost all respects (see Jay Fisher's opinion on this), but they get sold as a good deal because Carbons have a more "manly" and "traditional" image: Consider the association of "Plastics" with shallow urban phoniness, as made fun of in the movie "The Graduate": Stainless in "tough" fixed blade field knives is seen today in a similar light... This stigma of stainless does not apply to folders, because they are accepted as less "tough" and more "urban" in nature to begin with...

Carbons are much easier to sharpen quickly, which does make the average bloke feel more like a master sharpener, which is perfectly fair, but easier grinding does make for a more rapid thickening of the edge geometry if the mistake of Carbon steel is compounded with the mistake of a flat or convex grind, rather than using a more sensible hollow grind that would at least retain the same edge thickness geometry as the fast-wearing Carbon steel wears away...

But it is all about batoning these days...: That is literally all you see when the toughness and capability of a knife is evaluated (something that would have seemed quite incredible 20 years ago), so, in doing this, inferior fine edge holding is not as big an issue, therefore knives that are used as little more than splitting wedges (with a handle attached) do not suffer so visibly from being made in Carbon...


Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
...if the mistake of Carbon steel is compounded with the mistake of a flat or convex grind[/I], rather than using a more sensible hollow grind that would at least retain the same edge thickness geometry as the fast-wearing Carbon steel wears away...
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I see you're still slathering on the bullshit fairly heavily. Hollow grinds certainly have their place but certainly isn't the end-all and do-all you seem to so desperately want it to be. Hollow grinds suck for whittling, cutting dovetail joinery, etc.
 
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J.Davey said:
Consumer manipulation is what you're talking about, right?
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J.Davey said:
I knew when I posted this thread that it would go this way. :(
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Sounds like you are the one that is being snarky...

Companies have to pay for machines, upkeep, belts, cleaning crews, and a Bunch of other items not often figured into knife cost.
For further examples; what do you think pays for the paper in the offices photo copier?
What about paying for the staples in the staplers, and the staplers themselves...

There is more to a knifes cost than just what method it is made...
-----
If you are not comfortable spending that much on a knife, you have a few options:
A) Don't buy it.
B) Make your knife.
C) Find something comparable for less.
D) Decide where you want to make a concession and drop the cost in materials/labor.
E) Realize that what is good for me, might not be opportune for you.
F) Make your future decisions based upon what You can justify and learn that it is pompous to question why others spend the money they earn how they want...
 
So 440A or B is "superior" to say CPM3V, 1.2442 or CruForge V? Interesting. I get the impression that steels are, in some ways INFERIOR to simpler stainless steels like AEB-L for cutlery applications.
Gaston444 said:
54-56 RC would be Randall's 0-1: Their 440B is 56-58 RC from what I know. Also Randall's shop foreman is on the record that some 440B batches bridge into 440C in Carbon content...

Carbon steels are cheaper mainly because they are easier to grind. The fact that they are easier to grind also means they have somewhat lower edge holding than stainless (contrary to what Randall very strangely claims): Overall, Carbon steels are an inferior grade of steel in almost all respects (see Jay Fisher's opinion on this), but they get sold as a good deal because Carbons have a more "manly" and "traditional" image: Consider the association of "Plastics" with shallow urban phoniness, as made fun of in the movie "The Graduate": Stainless in "tough" fixed blade field knives is seen today in a similar light... This stigma of stainless does not apply to folders, because they are accepted as less "tough" and more "urban" in nature to begin with...

Carbons are much easier to sharpen quickly, which does make the average bloke feel more like a master sharpener, which is perfectly fair, but easier grinding does make for a more rapid thickening of the edge geometry if the mistake of Carbon steel is compounded with the mistake of a flat or convex grind, rather than using a more sensible hollow grind that would at least retain the same edge thickness geometry as the fast-wearing Carbon steel wears away...

But it is all about batoning these days...: That is literally all you see when the toughness and capability of a knife is evaluated (something that would have seemed quite incredible 20 years ago), so, in doing this, inferior fine edge holding is not as big an issue, therefore knives that are used as little more than splitting wedges (with a handle attached) do not suffer so visibly from being made in Carbon...


Gaston
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There's a lot of really bad info in this thread. Just shows how muddied the waters have become when it comes to steel types.

I sort of agree with the OP. Not that 1095 sucks or that all knives made from 1095 should be cheap, but that some manufacturers don't offer enough value in their 1095 knives for me to make a purchase. I'm fine with paying $200 for a nice custom or even a limited production traditional with stag handles, but $200 for a blade cut with a water jet, simple flat grind and micarta scales that don't have any sculpting or other milling seems silly. It may be a fine knife, it's just not offering enough value for my money.
 
leghog said:
I see you're still slathering on the bullshit fairly heavily. Hollow grinds certainly have their place but certainly isn't the end-all and do-all you seem to so desperately want it to be. Hollow grinds suck for whittling, cutting dovetail joinery, etc.
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It's sad, because he literally cannot help himself.
 
T.L.E. Sharp said:
There's a lot of really bad info in this thread. Just shows how muddied the waters have become when it comes to steel types.

I sort of agree with the OP. Not that 1095 sucks or that all knives made from 1095 should be cheap, but that some manufacturers don't offer enough value in their 1095 knives for me to make a purchase. I'm fine with paying $200 for a nice custom or even a limited production traditional with stag handles, but $200 for a blade cut with a water jet, simple flat grind and micarta scales that don't have any sculpting or other milling seems silly. It may be a fine knife, it's just not offering enough value for my money.
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This is exactly how I feel about 1095. I like it just fine, in fact, I have more knives made out of it than I do any other steel.

I just agree that the prices that some companies charge for it, is not what I'm willing to pay. In that price range(~$200+), I'd rather go custom, or find something made of more premium materials.
 
Ok William, let me get this straight. So are the previously uninformed better off that they are now misinformed???
[emoji51][emoji51]
 
palonej said:
Ok William, let me get this straight. So are the previously uninformed better off that they are now misinformed???
[emoji51][emoji51]
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No, but without this step the misinformed could never reproduce; this is how the misinformed are born, so to speak. It's like a mental virus, you don't want to catch it, but that's what the virus needs to do to survive.
 
Hmmmmmmm, getting a little clearer now, but not clear enough.......maybe I've been misinformed???
Uh oh
 
palonej said:
Hmmmmmmm, getting a little clearer now, but not clear enough.......maybe I've been misinformed???
Uh oh
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You could always just stay uninformed and make up whatever you say on the spot (I'm 99% sure this is how many of the posts on this forum are created).
 
That's what I learned from that misinformer above Greg!!
Mr 444 is a pro at that!!
 
palonej said:
Ok William, let me get this straight. So are the previously uninformed better off that they are now misinformed???
[emoji51][emoji51]
Click to expand...


Yes, this is due to the rest of us knowing that they are able to learn, and thus can be taught the correct ways.
On top of that, this will double as now having a populace that knows of one (or more) incorrect things to not attempt or spread as factual.

Even bad information is good in some aspects.
:D
 
NJBillK said:
Even bad information is good in some aspects.
:D
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So you're saying:

POeqEm4.jpg
 
Not if we catch them early enough. Your photo simply means we let the OP believe Gaston and let him fall prey to the wolves, or be taken advantage of...

But since there are the (more correctly) informed masses trying to help them out, it is but a show of their intellect/stubbornness if they choose to learn or not.
 
NJBillK said:
Yes, this is due to the rest of us knowing that they are able to learn, and thus can be taught the correct ways.
On top of that, this will double as now having a populace that knows of one (or more) incorrect things to not attempt or spread as factual.

Even bad information is good in some aspects.
:D
Click to expand...

I guess I've been informed.
 
Some companies offering high-priced 1095 models are geared around short run production rather than high volume, and as a result their manufacturing process is less efficient (and therefore more costly) but much more flexible, which allows them to produce a wide range of models and change things up frequently. That does come at a higher price, however.

Here's a generic manufacturing process and layout strategy explanation:

process-and-layout-strategies-25-728.jpg
 
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