1095 (produced by stock-removal by a company) is OVER-PRICED!!!!!

I'm a fan of GEC slipjoints of which most are 1095. These knives handle all my cutting needs and retain an edge fairly well. When they need it I sharpen them, oil the pivot and put a little mineral oil on the blade what I consider routine maintenance. I also own knives with steels like Elmax and S35V that truthfully for my needs is overkill but I paid the price because I liked them. Some of these GEC's will go around $150 new but there are also models for around $50 and I own both. Because of limited production some of the more popular models will go for $200 or more on the secondary market and if I like it I'll buy it because it's my money and my collection. I don't understand the OP's almost angry response to this steel. If you don't like something don't buy it. I think Frost, Mtech and such knives are total crap so I won't buy them therefore they will never stress me out. There are many folks that do buy these knives and that's fine with me. I don't care how much they pay for them or if they work for them and I don't really want anyone to try and convince me why I should buy them. If the OP thinks $200 is unreasonable for a knife with a 1095 steel blade then just don't buy one go get something else because the great thing about knife collecting these days are the many choices we have. There is absolutely no reason to get hostile over a blade steel, knife brand, price or someone else's opinion when you solicited it.
 
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I totally agree with the OP, and 1095 is way over rated stuff! So is 440B, 440C, 12C27, ABC123 and all the other alphabet soup steels listed. You want moneys worth blades? Go flint! After all, it's served man for 500,000 thousand years and it doesn't even rust in that time. Just grab a hunk of the stuff and whack it with a hammer or other rock, and you get a flake that's razor sharp! Makes all those steel blades look like butter knives!!! Yeah! The earth's full of it, all you have to do is gather it up.

Heck with steel, go grab a rock. All those Neanderthals couldn't be wrong.



:D
 
There are plenty of bafflingly overpriced knives in all steel types, no need to pick on 1095! :)
 
Let's look at a tops Bob. The knife is 1095 while not a super steel it's many people steel of choice for Bushcraft. It has micarta handles which is hazardous to employees health when sanded. So not only do you have to pay people (which are skilled Craftsmen)but you have to buy masks those masks have a recurring cost of the inserts that go in them. Then you you have to pay someone to QC the whole process so garbage doesn't go out and run your name. Then you have to pay designers to make the knives shapes and design. You want a recognized name? Big money. Then you have to decide what level do you want your knives trim to be shipped with? Tops Bob has a pretty bitching sheath, fire steel and a belt clip. Hey more Craftsmen​ that need paid and more QC to worry about....

You aren't buying a knife you are buying the quality and assurance that a man had built upon his name or the name of his company. You are paying for the promise that knife is 100% or he'll make it right.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 
I guess that I am old enough to remember when through-hardened O1 HT'ed to manufacturer's spec was the almost universal choice of bushcrafty people. ;)
TOPS was the company that I was referring to when was talking about HT methods that make me scratch my head. Go check out the "TOPS shop tour" videos on You Tube and watch the guy eyeballing the blades in the forge to see when the edge has come up to temperature and look at that oil bucket. I hear people talking about lower hardness 1095 being great because of "ease of sharpening in the field" but what is oft times not mentioned is that you are going to be performing that field expedient sharpening more often. In those super simple steel, a big driver of increased edge retention is increased hardness. Likewise, I wonder about edge quenching 1095 as even using best methods, as the thicker sections of a burly blade will likely not fully convert to 100% martensite anyway even if fully quenched. That is why you can get the "accidental hamon" on thick 1095/W1/W2 blades. if you HAVE to edge quench, why not spend an extra 50 cents per blade on 52100 which people have been edge quenching for years?
A few years back before the advent of "new to us" tough steels like 80CrV2, I asked Kevin Cashen what reasonably priced, readily available and RELATIVELY easy to work with steels he would pick if he was making a series of affordable non-stainless mid-tech or production blades for outdoor use. He said O1 for blades under 5 inches and low temperature austenized 52100 (think SR101) for bigger blades. He said that best results for both could be attained using high temp salt to austenize with low temp salt quench for the O1 and medium speed oil for the 52100.
thebiped said:
Let's look at a tops Bob. The knife is 1095 while not a super steel it's many people steel of choice for Bushcraft. It has micarta handles which is hazardous to employees health when sanded. So not only do you have to pay people (which are skilled Craftsmen)but you have to buy masks those masks have a recurring cost of the inserts that go in them. Then you you have to pay someone to QC the whole process so garbage doesn't go out and run your name. Then you have to pay designers to make the knives shapes and design. You want a recognized name? Big money. Then you have to decide what level do you want your knives trim to be shipped with? Tops Bob has a pretty bitching sheath, fire steel and a belt clip. Hey more Craftsmen​ that need paid and more QC to worry about....

You aren't buying a knife you are buying the quality and assurance that a man had built upon his name or the name of his company. You are paying for the promise that knife is 100% or he'll make it right.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
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jdm61 said:
I guess that I am old enough to remember when through-hardened O1 HT'ed to manufacturer's spec was the almost universal choice of bushcrafty people. ;)
TOPS was the company that I was referring to when was talking about HT methods that make me scratch my head. Go check out the "TOPS shop tour" videos on You Tube and watch the guy eyeballing the blades in the forge to see when the edge has come up to temperature and look at that oil bucket. I hear people talking about lower hardness 1095 being great because of "ease of sharpening in the field" but what is oft times not mentioned is that you are going to be performing that field expedient sharpening more often. In those super simple steel, a big driver of increased edge retention is increased hardness. Likewise, I wonder about edge quenching 1095 as even using best methods, as the thicker sections of a burly blade will likely not fully convert to 100% martensite anyway even if fully quenched. That is why you can get the "accidental hamon" on thick 1095/W1/W2 blades. if you HAVE to edge quench, why not spend an extra 50 cents per blade on 52100 which people have been edge quenching for years?
A few years back before the advent of "new to us" tough steels like 80CrV2, I asked Kevin Cashen what reasonably priced, readily available and RELATIVELY easy to work with steels he would pick if he was making a series of affordable non-stainless mid-tech or production blades for outdoor use. He said O1 for blades under 5 inches and low temperature austenized 52100 (think SR101) for bigger blades. He said that best results for both could be attained using high temp salt to austenize with low temp salt quench for the O1 and medium speed oil for the 52100.
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Hey man, you sound like you know what you're talking about buddy. I was just trying to relay you are buying more than a knife. Physically and virtually.

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To me, part of the whole "craftsmanship" thing is choosing best possible materials and methods, even if working to a price point. While I realize that say finding exhibition grade old growth flamed figure Cuban mahogany is expensive if not impossible, if you ae making a reproduction of the late 18th Century Newport Chippendale style table, you probaly shouldn't use old pallet wood stuck together with Gorilla glue. ;) If you wanted to sell me a reasonably priced "hard use" knife and offered me one made from through hardened 5160 at 58-59, I would be much more inclined to buy it compared to a "differentially tempered" 1095 blade at 56-57. Just saying.
thebiped said:
Hey man, you sound like you know what you're talking about buddy. I was just trying to relay you are buying more than a knife. Physically and virtually.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
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NJBillK said:
Says the guy who works in Titanium...

Lol ;) :D
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Lolz!~ Now if I could just figure out how to overcharge enough to keep my Bladeforums knifemaker membership paid up, I'd be in business. :D
 
Mecha said:
Lolz!~ Now if I could just figure out how to overcharge enough to keep my Bladeforums knifemaker membership paid up, I'd be in business. :D
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Start using 1095!
 
J.Davey said:
From what I understand about knife steels, the 10**s are the easiest to blank, grind, temper, etc...AND produce!

AM I CORRECT ON THIS???
I see so many knife companies, new and old, making it out like this 1095 is wonder steel!!! IT ISN'T!!! Is it an excellent steel? Hell yes! Is it worth paying $200 for from ANY company that does stock-removal, "special" heat treat or not????

Seriously. Somebody make me believe.:eek:
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How much is steel, how much is the material for handle and how much is the material for the sheath in these $200? Add to that the cost/hour to produce the finished product and depending on what you chose on all 3 categories, $200 is a decent price, a steal or a rip off. Don't blame others for unidirectional thinking.
PS Interesting in here nobody thinks the "rip off" comes from the sheaths - but if you check the market, a sheath sometimes is 60% to 100% the cost of the knife.
 
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jdm61 said:
To me, part of the whole "craftsmanship" thing is choosing best possible materials and methods, even if working to a price point. While I realize that say finding exhibition grade old growth flamed figure Cuban mahogany is expensive if not impossible, if you ae making a reproduction of the late 18th Century Newport Chippendale style table, you probaly shouldn't use old pallet wood stuck together with Gorilla glue. ;) If you wanted to sell me a reasonably priced "hard use" knife and offered me one made from through hardened 5160 at 58-59, I would be much more inclined to buy it compared to a "differentially tempered" 1095 blade at 56-57. Just saying.
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I'd personally have to consider other factors of the two knives before deciding which one to opt for. Both are at least "good enough" steels for the purpose, and so I'd be happy with the performance of either even if (providing all else was equal) I'd prefer the 5160. But the overall design, geometry, ergonomics, sheath, etc. all play a stronger role in influencing my choice than the specific steel so long as both are "appropriate".
 
I guess that I personally don't think that some of the 1095 at lower Rc levels is "good enough." On the other hand, I do think that the 15N20 and 1075 used in some of the budget gear that you carry probably are as the both respond well to more rudimentary HT procedures. I use a good bit of W2, which is essentially slightly modified 1095/W1 but still just as shallow hardening because of the low manganese levels. I leave it at high edge hardness levels even for big knives (60+) and the only time that I "differentially" harden the stuff is if I want a hamon and that is strictly for show.
FortyTwoBlades said:
I'd personally have to consider other factors of the two knives before deciding which one to opt for. Both are at least "good enough" steels for the purpose, and so I'd be happy with the performance of either even if (providing all else was equal) I'd prefer the 5160. But the overall design, geometry, ergonomics, sheath, etc. all play a stronger role in influencing my choice than the specific steel so long as both are "appropriate".
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J.Davey said:
I knew when I posted this thread that it would go this way. :(
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Yes, . . . . . . You did. Now pop off and start a "Are Sebenzas/Busses worth it?" or maybe a "Lynn Thompson is God" or "Strider lock-rock" thread.
 
I kind of view it this way. I've made some garage fire brick forged knives out of 1065. They turned out terribly. They're my first attempt so I'm not beating myself up. I screwed up the grinds, my handles were ugly. Funnily enough I think I actually nailed the heat treat. These knives suck though.

So my materials cost was only around $15. I spent about 3 hours on one garbage knife. My real world time is worth about $20/hr right now. So, did I make a $75 knife? I plan to keep going at it for hobby purposes but this exercise really taught me to appreciate craftsmanship, fit and finish, time, and labor.

I almost wouldn't feel right buying a skilled laborers tool that the maker spent 7 hours working on and is selling for under $100, that's like paying minimum wage for fine art.
 
LOL. What it actually is like is a saturated market where most of the craftsmen are hobbyists doing it for fun. I paid $375 for a lightweight Joe Flournoy fighter in 1992-93. It was forged from 1084.it had a 7 x 1.25 by 3/16 blade, a 416 guard, a maple burl handle and an ebony buttcap and an unadorned early Kenny Rowe slip sheath. No carving, stamping or what not. Nice little knife. Joe had just gotten his Ms stamp that year, but this one had no stamp, JS or MS. What would a well made knife like that from an AS sell for today, 24-25 year later? I'll give you a hint. I wold bet you dollars to doughnuts that you can find a very well made, knife like that made by some young guy in his garage for no more that what I paid in the early 90's and probably less. Browse through the listings in the for sale by maker section and see what you can get for the $125-200 that we are talking about folks paying for these 1095 factory knives.
Balls Deep said:
I kind of view it this way. I've made some garage fire brick forged knives out of 1065. They turned out terribly. They're my first attempt so I'm not beating myself up. I screwed up the grinds, my handles were ugly. Funnily enough I think I actually nailed the heat treat. These knives suck though.

So my materials cost was only around $15. I spent about 3 hours on one garbage knife. My real world time is worth about $20/hr right now. So, did I make a $75 knife? I plan to keep going at it for hobby purposes but this exercise really taught me to appreciate craftsmanship, fit and finish, time, and labor.

I almost wouldn't feel right buying a skilled laborers tool that the maker spent 7 hours working on and is selling for under $100, that's like paying minimum wage for fine art.
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