Spyderco Neck Knife?
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Sal Glesser
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From an absolutely functional / performance point of view. Some thoughts to share;
1) The first most important part about a knife is that you have it with you when you need it.
2) The second most important part about a knife is that you can access / deploy the knife effectively.
3) In a high adrenalin situation where extreme force is used, it is essential that you do not drop your knife.
4) The knife must not break.
5) If you have no training, the motion for defense must be as close to a natural motion as possible.
6) The size and geometry of the blade needs to be simple and efficient for penetration and / or slashing.
With those thoughts in mind, the Swick has evolved.
#1, as light and small as possible without compromising the other requirements. A neck sheath for showers (John's requirement).
#2, getting your index finger into the hole and your set.
#3 with your finger in the hole and your grip on the handle, the knife is secure. a full four finger grip that won't twist or drop. If your opponent (skilled) can knock the knife from your hand, your preparation was wasted. Even a Michael Janich "wrist snap" will not dislodge the knife from your tight grip. I question the use of a lanyard as a handle in an extreme situation (just my opinion).
#4 make the knife from strong, tough materials. break test all parts.
#5 is swinging your arms towards your oponent.
#6 is based on Michael's research on warncliffe's. Length is not as important as a sharp edge that is securely gripped. Think cat's claw. Not long, but just right.
If you are involved in a real situation where such a reaction is necessary, compromise might make the difference between success and failure. I would not be interested to make a piece that would be marginally functional in a real life situation.
In addition, the Swick can be belt worn and will work as well in reverse edge out with the pinky in the hole.
Just some thoughts to share.
sal
1) The first most important part about a knife is that you have it with you when you need it.
2) The second most important part about a knife is that you can access / deploy the knife effectively.
3) In a high adrenalin situation where extreme force is used, it is essential that you do not drop your knife.
4) The knife must not break.
5) If you have no training, the motion for defense must be as close to a natural motion as possible.
6) The size and geometry of the blade needs to be simple and efficient for penetration and / or slashing.
With those thoughts in mind, the Swick has evolved.
#1, as light and small as possible without compromising the other requirements. A neck sheath for showers (John's requirement).
#2, getting your index finger into the hole and your set.
#3 with your finger in the hole and your grip on the handle, the knife is secure. a full four finger grip that won't twist or drop. If your opponent (skilled) can knock the knife from your hand, your preparation was wasted. Even a Michael Janich "wrist snap" will not dislodge the knife from your tight grip. I question the use of a lanyard as a handle in an extreme situation (just my opinion).
#4 make the knife from strong, tough materials. break test all parts.
#5 is swinging your arms towards your oponent.
#6 is based on Michael's research on warncliffe's. Length is not as important as a sharp edge that is securely gripped. Think cat's claw. Not long, but just right.
If you are involved in a real situation where such a reaction is necessary, compromise might make the difference between success and failure. I would not be interested to make a piece that would be marginally functional in a real life situation.
In addition, the Swick can be belt worn and will work as well in reverse edge out with the pinky in the hole.
Just some thoughts to share.
sal
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I would personally love to see a Swick/SPOT in either (or both) a slightly longer wharncliffe (3" cutting edge), or a 2.5" cutting edge with a slight claw curve. Either way, make the hole just a bit bigger. It was fine on the SPOT, but it's just a bit too small for me on the Swick, and I don't have particularly large hands or fat fingers.
Sal Glesser
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I'm working on a Swick 3 with some mods to the ergos and finger hole (size / location). I'm planning a leaf and a warnie, 2.25" blade. When we get something made, I'll send them to John for some evaluating.
Also looking forward to what John comes up with.
sal
Also looking forward to what John comes up with.
sal
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Sam's designs look good. We should be on track to have models to you by the end of the month.
I agree with your thoughts on the subject, Sal. And of course I'd be honored to test any new evolutions. There's also a SGT in theater from my last unit, from whom I could get a female perspective.
John
I agree with your thoughts on the subject, Sal. And of course I'd be honored to test any new evolutions. There's also a SGT in theater from my last unit, from whom I could get a female perspective.
John
Sal, I've been carrying the Swick (first one) since you produced it, and have bought, and given away to fellow Teammates the other variation. I'm currently wearing a Swick 1 in a KIAH kydex sheath that has been Ceracoated by fellow BF member JFORBUSH. This knife wears extremely well under my plate carrier and is my last ditch knife. My only modification was to have it coated, due to prolonged exposure to sweat. When you build this next variation, I will buy it and have another sheath made for it. If it's in H1 then I won't have to get it coated. So far, this is the only knife of it's kind that fits my sausage finger and provides a usable grip. Please continue to produce this product, as the others (Emerson/Brous/HAK/RaidOps) have not worked for me. Thank you.
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It's great to see you guys working to get out an improved Swick. I purchased a Swick 2 but found it a little too large and obtrusive for me; having John (whose ideas for a perfect neck knife are in line with mine) test out a newer version would be fantastic.
Sal Glesser
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A few have suggested making the Swick smaller. I'm having difficulty seeing where to reduce size without giving up blade or grip?
sal
sal
I really appreciate the fact that you're even taking the time to talk with us about a knife design that may or may not be produced Sal, so I hope my opinions can be of some help.
Firstly, the blade length can, and in my opinion should, be reduced. 2.25 inches usually isn't much, but compared to Fred Perrin's original sized La Griffe (which came around 1.5 inches IIRC), it is fairly long. Your previous post mentioned that length isn't as important as a sharp blade in a secure grip, which I am in complete agreement with. I believe it can be shortened a little, which makes it more comfortable to carry as a neck knife.
Secondly, with the designs of the Swick, I believe I can see a little room for the design of the handle to be compressed slightly. I know this is not very specific, but it is difficult to describe in words. The placement of the index finger hole could be moved a little to the handle side, and thus less steel can be used. However, I also understand that this may reduce the overall strength of the knife structure, as well as sabotage the grip strength of the user.
I am certainly no expert in this field; all I will say is that I hope to see these changes be made. Also good to note that my hands are sized quite small, so these suggestions may not be suitable for bigger fellas. Hopefully I'm not spouting absolute rubbish.
Firstly, the blade length can, and in my opinion should, be reduced. 2.25 inches usually isn't much, but compared to Fred Perrin's original sized La Griffe (which came around 1.5 inches IIRC), it is fairly long. Your previous post mentioned that length isn't as important as a sharp blade in a secure grip, which I am in complete agreement with. I believe it can be shortened a little, which makes it more comfortable to carry as a neck knife.
Secondly, with the designs of the Swick, I believe I can see a little room for the design of the handle to be compressed slightly. I know this is not very specific, but it is difficult to describe in words. The placement of the index finger hole could be moved a little to the handle side, and thus less steel can be used. However, I also understand that this may reduce the overall strength of the knife structure, as well as sabotage the grip strength of the user.
I am certainly no expert in this field; all I will say is that I hope to see these changes be made. Also good to note that my hands are sized quite small, so these suggestions may not be suitable for bigger fellas. Hopefully I'm not spouting absolute rubbish.
Do not make this next version smaller! That is why the other knives in this category don't work as well, they are too small or the blade is shaped wrong or the finger hole is too small/not where it should be. My missus carries the La Grif because I can't, finger hole too small and handle too small, great for a woman. If you want a smaller knife, there are plenty out there. This knife is excellent at being carried a lot, due to light weight slim profile, and used a little. But if you have to use it, it will get the job done. If you make it so small that it disappears, it will not be usable. Look at some of the other sub compact/very small neck knives out there already. Most are too small or the blade shape is so specialized that it can only be used for one cutting motion or doesn't give the penetration, or the handle is so small/narrow/short that you wouldn't trust a jab or a full slash. Please do not make this next version smaller.
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I think you mean, "great for someone with small hands". But, maybe you actually mean it's great just for women, but not men?
Well, Spyderco is my preferred source, but if you can point me towards a well-designed, rustproof knife with a secure sheath that weighs less than 1.1 oz, I'll certainly consider it.
John
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I have to weigh in on this a bit. I've been carrying a HAK (Hideway Knife) for years now and have trained with it extensively. It's an extreme variant of the finger hole concept to the point it has no handle instead having a two-finger capsule. It's the ultimate end result for anyone who wants a 'small' knife such as being described. It has notable limitations, namely the fact it cannot be drawn as easily as a La Griffe or Swick. I turned down the Swick 2 sprint due to the blade length and shape (I highly prefer Wharnecliffes, just a preference, not a dogma) , and dislike the La Griffe's production models because of the chisel grind and hawkbill. For a knife such as this which is meant to be carried constantly and used in extreme close-quarters, I am fine with a small blade such as the HAK's sub 2 inches. If the Swick had a smaller blade, I'd be fine with it even if it were for utility purposes.
I also have to comment on the handle debate. I have the smallest hands I've ever seen on a male, many of the women in my life have larger hands than me. I've found over the years that knives that others complain about fit me absolutely superbly, but often find that many traditional designs simply can't be reasonably handled. In my hands, a Delica seems truly full-sized, and even after years of training an Endura is tricky to draw and open because of my hand size. There are a lot of popular knives that simply aren't reasonable for me to hold and use. As some one with the appropriately sized hands for a female, I would honestly have interest in an ever so slightly downsized Swick which kept a focus on the finger hole. I wouldn't just recommend it to females, I'd carry one myself daily as a true evolution of what Fred Perrin was shooting for. A two inch blade or a shade under would be fine for me, and looking at the handle design I personally prefer the original Swick for its more skeletal handle. Was there handle flex that had to be alleviated in the later model with the added material?
Other companies have taken the Perrin concept and focused on giving the most blade possible...At some point it gets to be too much for the handle, the finger hole is ideal for controlling a small blade with security and precision. A larger blade adds more leverage to work with, negative blade angles don't quite work well for me when they're trying to match a full-sized knife blade. While the hole means you can't drop the knife no matter what size it is, I feel it works best with smaller blades in which you essentially grow a claw you have distinct feel and control over.
Realistically, most consumers will have larger hands, and will desire any blade length they can manage. I won't pretend a smaller Swick would sell, I'm used to having hands too small for everything. I'm glad to see the Swick is still going and changing, will definitely give it a look. I eventually do need a finger hole knife, I must say after a lot of looking around that Spyderco is putting more thought into the concept than others.
I also have to comment on the handle debate. I have the smallest hands I've ever seen on a male, many of the women in my life have larger hands than me. I've found over the years that knives that others complain about fit me absolutely superbly, but often find that many traditional designs simply can't be reasonably handled. In my hands, a Delica seems truly full-sized, and even after years of training an Endura is tricky to draw and open because of my hand size. There are a lot of popular knives that simply aren't reasonable for me to hold and use. As some one with the appropriately sized hands for a female, I would honestly have interest in an ever so slightly downsized Swick which kept a focus on the finger hole. I wouldn't just recommend it to females, I'd carry one myself daily as a true evolution of what Fred Perrin was shooting for. A two inch blade or a shade under would be fine for me, and looking at the handle design I personally prefer the original Swick for its more skeletal handle. Was there handle flex that had to be alleviated in the later model with the added material?
Other companies have taken the Perrin concept and focused on giving the most blade possible...At some point it gets to be too much for the handle, the finger hole is ideal for controlling a small blade with security and precision. A larger blade adds more leverage to work with, negative blade angles don't quite work well for me when they're trying to match a full-sized knife blade. While the hole means you can't drop the knife no matter what size it is, I feel it works best with smaller blades in which you essentially grow a claw you have distinct feel and control over.
Realistically, most consumers will have larger hands, and will desire any blade length they can manage. I won't pretend a smaller Swick would sell, I'm used to having hands too small for everything. I'm glad to see the Swick is still going and changing, will definitely give it a look. I eventually do need a finger hole knife, I must say after a lot of looking around that Spyderco is putting more thought into the concept than others.
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Well spoken.
I think of myself as having medium-small hands, but was just told yesterday that I "have big hands for such a little guy". And feet, I said.
After Sam finishes the models, he'll test them. Sam is my physical opposite~ he has huge paws. If they work for him, he'll turn them over to his wife for testing. She is tiny. The models only get sent to Sal & co if these work for both mutants and the diminutive. I am honestly more concerned with these working for little people than people with hands the size of hams.
J
I think of myself as having medium-small hands, but was just told yesterday that I "have big hands for such a little guy". And feet, I said.
After Sam finishes the models, he'll test them. Sam is my physical opposite~ he has huge paws. If they work for him, he'll turn them over to his wife for testing. She is tiny. The models only get sent to Sal & co if these work for both mutants and the diminutive. I am honestly more concerned with these working for little people than people with hands the size of hams.
J
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As a representative of the Lollipop Guild, thank you for considering us.
While it may affect sales and reduce likelihood of production, a size down blade with a niche such as this...Noble intent, even an engineer would admit that.
While it may affect sales and reduce likelihood of production, a size down blade with a niche such as this...Noble intent, even an engineer would admit that.
I should have said "people with small hands", but I don't know any except for my missus. Her hands/fingers are "delicate". That being said, there are other small person knives out there that I've bought and couldn't use. RaidOps Raptor, S30v comes with kydex, finger hole is very small like La Griff. They also have a two finger design. Brous Silent Soldier, D2, two finger design kydex sheath. Ends up being a Finger/palm knife. And if you do manage to grip it with a finger, other than the index, then the next finger over is too close to the edge or in my case, on the edge. I had the HAK on two different occasions (I tried to like it), and could not get used to the lack of point control or the draw. The best substitute to the Swick, except for weight/steel/ and supplied sheath has been Tops knives CockPit Commander. The steel is 1095, thickness is 3/16", and the kydex was replaced by a KIAH custom sheath. That knife rides horizontally on my Bat belt cuss it's to heavy, prone to rust, and big for neck carry. That being said, I'm looking forward to the next variation. I hope it's not too small.
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I LOVE that blade design John. It reminds me of the Spyderco ATR a little (which I have and love). I think with the Perrin ring it would be even a little better. That is just my opinion. I have found the ring on my LaGriffe a great asset in retention. I just needed more handle and your design has it.
I have carried a LaGriffe since 2002. I recently got a Silent Soldier which is a heck of a knife, but there are problems for me because there is not enough handle for my tastes.
I have even been trying the Folts design Minimalist, it is a nice little user blade, but again I feel not enough grip for a good emergency blade.
I like carrrying a small neck knife with me always. I always have had an issue with rust with my EKI Lagriffe. I sweat like a demon in the heat and it seems all blades can be made to rust by me.
I love the idea of a H1 blade in this instance. It would be good to have a blade that could be kept next to the skin with no worry of rust and no need for constant rust issues.
I hope that this could come together.
Sal, keep up the great work on all of your great knives!
I have carried a LaGriffe since 2002. I recently got a Silent Soldier which is a heck of a knife, but there are problems for me because there is not enough handle for my tastes.
I have even been trying the Folts design Minimalist, it is a nice little user blade, but again I feel not enough grip for a good emergency blade.
I like carrrying a small neck knife with me always. I always have had an issue with rust with my EKI Lagriffe. I sweat like a demon in the heat and it seems all blades can be made to rust by me.
I love the idea of a H1 blade in this instance. It would be good to have a blade that could be kept next to the skin with no worry of rust and no need for constant rust issues.
I hope that this could come together.
Sal, keep up the great work on all of your great knives!
Sal Glesser
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Hi John,
It certainly has a "look". Have you weighed it yet?
sal
It certainly has a "look". Have you weighed it yet?
sal